Our society has been deceived by Satan…pride is never a good thing, for any reason. Yes, translations do vary and bias is an art form, but the physical form in which we are confronted by God’s word makes a difference as well. 1 Timothy 2:8 is the only verse here about men. Along the way, you can learn about the philosophies behind different translations in general, not just the ESV and the NIV 2011. 2 Corinthians 1:12 For our proud confidence is this…. What is he “taking pride” in? I occasionally use them because the KJV can sometimes be difficult to understand. But women will be saved through childbearing, assuming they continue to live in faith, love, holiness, and modesty. Thank You. I am an older lady, but am able to change and learn new things, just so you know, but my church uses the NIV, and I just dislike it so much! Plus translating can be subjective. An evaluation of passages in the NET Bible that affect the status and ministry of women by Laura Hunt is here. The ESV-Bible’s Men-only Club The NRSV is a very good translation most of the time. “Being born” is different from “being made” in the previous edition. (I discuss if Andronicus and Junia were among the apostles, or not, here. The NRSV and Common English Bible (CEB) don’t use “man/men” at all. Hi Marg. The CSB accurately translates the singular Greek verb with”she will be saved.”, ~ As in the previous edition, the translators have used the words “man” and “office” in 1 Timothy 3:1: “if any man aspires to the office of overseer …” But there is no Greek word that means “man” in this verse, and being an overseer in Ephesus may not have been considered a church office until later. For pride is much deeper than arrogance or haughtiness, and far more consuming. Its major flaw is its loose handling of “gender-inclusive” language. ), ~ 1 Timothy 2:11 is unchanged from the previous edition and maintains the too passive sounding, “A woman must quietly receive instruction …” This translation is not as accurate as it could be. I also like the CEB and some of their controversial renderings of verses, but a few verses are over-interpreted rather than translated. Though I wished the translators had used “Messiah” more. Women were ubiquitous in the missions of Paul, and he refers to these women with his favourite ministry terms: coworker, apostle (apostolos), minister/deacon (diakonos). Also consider the following: For example, can you tell which of the following verses are addressed to men only (in the Greek text), and which verses are gender non-specific? Although I suspect that most of the people I was exposed to weren't really academics. 6:4 KJV; Phil 1:26 KJV; Phil. For all these reasons, there will never be a fully accurate translation of the Hebrew and Greek scriptures. “Catastrophe” in literary theory wraps up the plot, because it was originally applied to tragedies. [Update: The NASB 2020 uses gender-neutral language in Romans 12:6-8. Required fields are marked *. For one, they capture the meaning of idioms well. What about the HCSB translation? No one is being deceived here. “Thou hast multiplied the nation, and not increased the joy: they joy before thee according to the joy in harvest, and as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.” Isa 9:3, ISV … being born in the likeness of men. a gender hierarchy). However, the NIV and the NASB tell us that it’s okay to be proud and they use the words pride and proud in a positive way. I love the Common English Bible (CEB) Study Bible. Here are a few examples of contradictions in the NIV and NASB. I’ve just had a quick look at the HCSB. “It is not allowed for those women who are called ‘priests/elders’ (presbytides) or ‘those women presiding’(prokathēmenai) to be ordained (kathistasthai) in the churches.” If I'm doing work with paper bibles, I use KJV + Strong's if only because I've inherited these books. Thx! Thanks again for speaking positively of the CSB, I think I’ll give it another try. The NASB translates the Greek word that means “boast” as “proud confidence”, etc. It has also used the NIV and NRSV, in the past, but I do not like the last one. I have not at all noticed an unnecessary use of masculine pronouns in the CSB, and I wonder what verses they are referring to. If I had doubts about a verse or word, I would see how it is translated in a newer, better translation. The NRSV is an accurate and quite literal translation, and it is the translation of choice in many theological colleges and universities in Australia, but I don’t like its style. Thanks for letting us know about the availability of the TNIV in South Africa. I like the N.R.S.V. But the truth is, it’s not okay for any reason. … being born in human likeness. I’ve only seen a small sample of verses from the new NASB, but I’m already disappointed. And i have read a number of comments people make of where the NRSV goes too far in gender neutral language. I don’t like the lack of “Son of Man” in the OT in the NRSV. If it means anything to you, the NASB is much more popular among conservative academics, while the NRSV is a pretty mainstream academic option. And being found in appearance as a man … NIV 2011 And yet in Isaiah 60:15, the NIV would apparently have us believe that God really doesn’t mean what he says about pride because it states that in reference to Jerusalem, God says that “Although you have been forsaken and hated, with no one traveling through, I will make you the everlasting pride and the joy of all generations. Today, Satan has deceived virtually the entire world into believing that the very thing that he fell from can actually be a good thing, and people, even Christians, speak of it in positive ways. I think a history of Bible translation would be fascinating. I recently got a CSB, and I’m hoping to get a CEB soon. Romans 11:13 I am talking to you Gentiles. I’ve italicised the problem words. Or is it better to just try to learn Greek and get a Greek Bible? Previously Biblica and Zondervan were publishing the TNIV alongside the 1984 NIV, but now only a single edition of the translation, the 2011 update, is being published.’ (Source). And it gives the reasons why I love the CSB so much. So now it’s the first translation I look at. Great thread…!!! 2 Corinthians 1:14 just as you also partially did understand us, that WE ARE YOUR REASON TO BE PROUD as you also are ours, in the day of our Lord Jesus. I have an article on the gender of God that has a short bibliography of the sources I used, here. A short review of the CEB by Hebrew scholar Martin Shields is here. The cinematic NIV Live (around $15) uses its 79 CDs to take listeners from Genesis through to Revelation with the help of accomplished actors, singers, and experienced pastors and members of the clergy who have combined their talents to breathe new life into God's … However, what the translators of the NASB and NIV apparently didn’t realize, is that there is no good way to be proud. I was excited about the CSB but it’s very bias still and inaccurate in certain ways. More on the ministry of women in the first century church here. For these and other reasons, such as no inclusive singular third-person pronoun in English, it is impossible to produce a perfectly gender-accurate and gender-inclusive translation. And interpretation can be subjective. From what I understand, the TNIV is no longer being published, so I didn’t include it in my short investigation. The New International Version is a “dynamic” translation. How the Church (and society) was 2000 years ago is not the authoritative marker for how it should be for all time. That is, they believe the ESV upholds distinct gender roles (i.e. From the very few examples given, the NRSV and CEB have shown that they are committed to gender-accuracy, gender-inclusivity, and gender-clarity. Why masculine pronouns can be misleading in the Bible and in the church Baptist writer William P. Grady, in a chapter titled the “Synagogue of Satan,” writes, “The average Christ-ian is unaware that the manuscripts from which the modern ‘Bibles’ have been translated are Egyptian in origin; more specifically, Alexandrian. The NASB and the NIV, indeed all major English translations, translate Proverbs 13:10 with the same meaning whether they use they use the word “pride” or not. And there are words and concepts in the Hebrew and Greek that do not have an English word which adequately conveys the correct meaning. Some recent translations are more gender-inclusive than others. Nevertheless, I suspect women, as well as men, functioned as elders and bishops in a few New Testament congregations. If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully. He is boasting about counter-cultural things (e.g., tribulations). I can't afford both right now, but would like to buy one or the other. How someone approaches reading and thinking about the text largely determines if a study is inductive or not. It was expected that readers would somehow know which verses were about, or applied to, men and women, and which verses were about, or applied only to, men. Compare the following translations of Philippians 2:7b-8a (I have underlined the masculine words and I have italicised the gender-neutral, inclusive words): … being made in the likeness of men. 2 Timothy 2:2 (NIV 1984) (More about this verse here. Subsequent study of these documents has immensely improved our knowledge of Koine. I wholly agree that the ESV does not make itself apparent with its translation decisions as the NKJV did. Hi Marg, have you had any time to see my NT at http://bible.fether.net ? . All are welcome to participate. Which foreign language Bibles do you recommend for people wanting gender-inclusive verses to be translated in a gender-inclusive way? I’m writing my undergraduate dissertation on the Gender of God, and will have a chapter on bible translations and their pronouns; can you recommend any books? ), For the sake of comparison with other translations of 1 Timothy 2:3b-5 above, here’s how the NASB 2020 translates this verse: 7 Places where Gender-Inclusive Bible Translation Really Matters: Part One and Part Two, by Jeffrey D. Miller. (For reference, I looked at: 1 Timothy 2:11-15, 3:11; 1 Corinthians 11:2-16, 14:34-34; Romans 16:1-2, 7 in the NET). Although the gender language changes are perhaps the most significant in the revision of the HCSB, there are many others. Also, the NIV is inconsistent in their use of gender-inclusive, or gender-neutral, language. Thus, the NASB and the NIV are not really translations at all, because they have proven themselves to be incorrect. Just my two cents! (1 John 3.17) Zondervans TNIV is freely available in S.A. wrt to NLT I see in a related article that you refer to NLT 2007. [2] I use the term “gender-clarity” to refer to the helpful use of gendered language (e.g., masculine or feminine pronouns) in verses that are specifically about men or specifically about women. Listen and give heed, do not be haughty, For the LORD has spoken. 3:6 KJV). . If I have time, I may take a closer look at the HCSB. For instance, Sarah obeyed her husband, Abraham, and called him her master .